A Double-Edged Sword: Roy Thomas, Frank Thorne and Red Sonja

I originally wrote the following in August 2019 as a multi-post thread on an internet forum, but figured that I ought to preserve it here (with some minor revisions) as an entry on my blog.  I had been looking over my collection of 1970s Red Sonja comics, produced during the same period as Jack Kirby's return to Marvel (1975-1978) and noticed some interesting parallels to reader reaction in the letter pages, as well as matters related to the question of character creation. 

To start things off, below is the text page by Roy Thomas in MARVEL FEATURE #1 (Nov. 1975) which was the first "all Red Sonja" comic book. As Roy explains, the character first appeared in Conan #23 & 24 (Feb. & March 1973), loosely based on a Robert E. Howard character named Red Sonya.  The character next appeared (redesigned) in Savage Tales #3 (Feb. 1974), Savage Sword of Conan #1 (Aug. 1974), Conan #43, 44 & 48 (1974-75), and Kull And The Barbarians #2 & 3 (1975). Her very next appearance was in this Marvel Feature #1 issue which contained a new 8-page tale by Roy Thomas & Dick Giordano and a color reprint of the Savage Sword #1 story.  

In the text page, Thomas notes that future issues will be drawn by Frank Thorne ("a long-time pro making what amounts to his Marvel debut, will be doing his pen-and-ink thing").  You can click the image below and open it in a new tab to view it larger.

There was no text page in MARVEL FEATURE #2 (Jan. 1976). The credit box on the splash page lists Bruce Jones as writer, Frank Thorne as artist, Roy Thomas as Editor, and Robert E. Howard as Red Sonja's creator. No credit is given for the lettering or coloring (possibly by Thorne, as we will see ahead).

MARVEL FEATURE #3 (March 1976) has the same credits on the splash page, plus Petra Goldberg as colorist. The issue's lettercol concerns Sonja's appearance in Kull And The Barbarians #2.

MARVEL FEATURE #4 (May 1976) has the same credits as before, with the exception of "G. Roussos" listed as colorist. No letterer credit is given, although presumably it is Thorne who is only credited as "artist." This issue's story will be reprinted a year later in The Superhero Women by Stan Lee (more to come on that). Once again, there is no text page in this issue.

MARVEL FEATURE #5 (July 1976) has a credit box on the splash page that lists Jones as writer, Thorne as artist, D. Warfield as colorist and Thomas as editor (in that order). Instead of a text page this issue, there is a Sonja pin-up by Thorne. In a future issue, Thomas explains that the lettercol for this issue went missing, so the pin-up was printed instead.

MARVEL FEATURE #6 (Sept. 1976) has Roy Thomas as writer-editor, Frank Thorne as artist-letterer, George Roussos as colorist and Robert E. Howard as the characters' creator, credited that way (and in that order) on the splash page. This issue's lettercol (shown below) features the first reader responses to Frank Thorne's art, led off by reader Ralph Macchio criticizing Thorne's art as too detailed, while praising his layouts.  "What most disturbs me about Frank's art," Macchio writes, "is the way he seems to clutter each page with figures and lines that tend to tire the eye."

In reply, editor Roy Thomas says that Thorne's art has received a mixed response from readers and that (non-artist) Roy has been "working with him to develop Red Sonja artistically along certain lines as we go along."  

MARVEL FEATURE #7 (Nov. 1976) is the final issue of the series; two months later Red Sonja will receive her own series with a new #1. This issue guest-stars Conan. On the credit box, no letterer credit is given as Thorne is listed simply as "illustrator." Hugh Daley is the colorist. 

The lettercol has only two letters, one by Bob Rodi praising Thorne ("I think I'm in love. Not only with Sonja, but with Thorne. An incredible man!") and a letter by John Schuch criticizing Bruce Jones' Sonja scripts. (Jones' last Sonja script was in Marvel Feature #5.) In his response, Thomas alludes to the multiple hands involved in Sonja's creation: "more or less conceived by Robert E. Howard... then turned into a Hyborian-Age heroine by Roy in CONAN #24 (with some artistic help by Barry Smith, of course)." Roy agrees with the reader that some readers were "bothered by minor touches" in Bruce Jones' handling of Sonja.

I don't have RED SONJA #1 in my collection, but I do have the rest (#2 thru #15, with #15 being the final issue).  According to its GCD entry the issue had a letters page.  The splash page credits Ed Summer with the plot, with Roy Thomas and Clara Noto as the writers of the story.  Frank Thorne's contributions are listed second in the credits, as "art-color."  Of course, publisher Stan Lee's name is the most prominent (and first) name listed, "presenting" a comic that he likely had little personal involvement with.

I knew that Frank Thorne left the Red Sonja series at some point before it ended and was curious to see how all of this played out by looking through these issues. It was clear to me (and will become more clear going forward) that Frank Thorne was a "complete" creator who can do it all (writing, penciling, inking, lettering, coloring) and appeared to prefer doing it all, in the same way as an Alex Toth or in the same way as many independent creators. And yet here he was doing that (aside from the scripting) every other month, every issue, on a mainstream newsstand comic published by Marvel, which more often is run like an assembly-line. It's clear that Thorne became enthusiastic about a character he didn't own and hadn't created, and yet had become her biggest champion. Did Marvel readers, accustomed to the assembly-line approach that dilutes such individualistic expression, appreciate what Thorne was doing?

For years I assumed that Thorne was one of the young fan-favorite illustrators that first appeared in the late 1960s or early 1970s along with artists like Wrightson, Starlin, etc. I only recently learned that he first began drawing comics professionally in 1948 (before Ditko by a few years), more in the generation of the 1950s artists than the 1970s with which I had always associated him.  (Frank Thorne passed away on March 7, 2021.)

I had also always thought that his Sonja was popular with fandom, given the stories of Thorne judging Sonja cosplay during those years. Judging by the letter pages, however, Thorne's contributions were not always well-received, as we shall see below.

RED SONJA #2 (March 1977) has two letters on a half-page lettercol. Ed Via writes: "Frank Thorne's art continues to grow on me, though the final verdict is still not in." The splash page's credit box lists Roy Thomas and Clara Noto as the writers, Frank Thorne as "illustrator-colorist" (no lettering credit) and Robert E. Howard as Sonja's creator.

Since presumably Thorne was the letterer (though this isn't made clear elsewhere yet, like in the lettercol), then it may have been Thorne himself lettering these credit boxes and not bothering to credit himself with that role. However, since many Marvel fans like to point out how Marvel consistently provided the credits for each issue's contributors, it's curious that as late as 1977 a lettering credit would be consistently absent from the pages of a Marvel comic.

RED SONJA #3 (May 1977) has the same credits as the previous issue except Thorne's is listed as "illustrations, lettering, color" (his lettering role finally acknowledged). An interior ad for Marvel merchandise prominently features a Red Sonja t-shirt (signed by Thorne), a Sonja poster by "Sonja's own Fearless Frank Thorne" and "our super special Red Sonja button by Frank Thorne!"

The lettercol is filled with praise for Red Sonja #1, except for one reader who writes "Still don't care much for Frank's art."

In response to another reader, Roy Thomas again diminishes REH's contribution to the creation of Red Sonja (since REH's character was actually named Sonya). "Despite all due credit each and every issue to Robert E. Howard... the fact remains that the Red Sonja who lives and battles in the Hyborian Age is equally the creation of Ye Blushing Writer/Editor."

RED SONJA #4 (July 1977) has Roy's name twice in the credits box. It reads this way: Roy Thomas and Clara Noto writers, Frank Thorne illustrator-colorist, Roy Thomas editor, and "featuring the heroine created by Robert E. Howard."

In the lettercol, a reader writes: "I was at the Red Sonja convention. I must say it was a huge success -- TV coverage, autographs, artists galore, and I got to have Roy Thomas and Frank Thorne to autograph RED SONJA #1! My brother, all he did was talk to Roy Thomas, carry Roy's things, and get on TV with Frank and Roy. I was on another channel where they were showing the Red Sonja contestants at the pool area."

RED SONJA #5 (Sept. 1977) shortens the credits so that Roy is listed only once adding the word "editor" in parentheses next to his co-writer (with Clara Noto) credit. Frank Thorne's credit is listed simply as "everything else." Archie Goodwin's name is added as "consulting editor"; presumably this means he was now editor-in-chief (a position shortly to be filled by Jim Shooter).

The credit box in RED SONJA #6 (Nov. 1977) is the same as last issue, except Wendy Pini is listed as co-writer while Clara Noto is credited with the plot. Frank Thorne (the fourth person listed, if you don't count the "Stan Lee Presents" line) is credited simply for "art-color." In the lettercol, a reader mentions hearing Frank Thorne on the radio. 

Another reader, Mark Ryan, wrote in the same lettercol: "As for Frank Thorne: He is an artist among artists. From 1972 to 1977, he has improved five times over. I am absolutely sure that his artwork is such a success because he does only one character and one book, as well as doing the inking, lettering, and coloring."

In the lettercol of RED SONJA #7 (Jan. 1978), in response to a reader who offered suggestions to Thorne on how to improve his art, Thomas stated that "people seem either to love Frank's art or hate it." The credit box this issue lists Thorne as "illustrations, coloring, lettering."

RED SONJA #8 (March 1978) lacked a text page. This issue's splash page, shown here, is typical of how the credits ran during Thorne's run at this point.

FOOM #18 (June 1977) carried an item about the growing popularity of Red Sonja on page 4 of the issue. The item closed by comparing Sonja's popularity with Howard The Duck (more on this later).  

The July 28, 1977 episode of The Mike Douglas Show featured convention organizer Phil Seuling discussing comics, with a brief appearance by Wendy Pini at the end, dressed as Red Sonja.  The segment can be viewed on YouTube.

THE SUPERHERO WOMEN by Stan Lee was published by Simon and Schuster in November 1977. This was Lee's fourth book containing reprints of Marvel comics alongside short text introductions written by him. Red Sonja is the subject of the second chapter in the book which (as noted above) reprints the Sonja story in Marvel Feature #4 by Bruce Jones and Frank Thorne, along with a 2-page text intro by Lee. The second page below (page 36) has the sole paragraph mentioning Thorne where Lee says that "the fantastic popularity of both Sonja and Thorne is almost a cause for concern" (of course he was just kidding around).

Beginning with RED SONJA #9 (May 1978) Roy's co-writer is listed in the credits as Clair Noto (which is how her name is spelled on her IMDB page), not Clara Noto. Had Roy spelled her first name wrong by mistake in the previous 8 issues, or did Noto change her name?

At any rate, this issue's lettercol (where Roy still calls her Clara) contains the first explanation of who is writing what in this series (unless it was explained in #1, which I don't have). In response to a question by reader Sam Hays about who writes what, Roy says that Noto and he discuss the general storyline and then Noto writes a synopsis. The synopsis is sent to Thorne who sends Thomas rough pencil layouts of the story. Noto takes Thorne's rough art pages and writes a script (which Roy calls here "a first draft of the script"). After receiving Noto's script, Thomas completely retypes it, making occasional changes (in effect, a second draft of the script).Thomas' version is sent to Thorne to draw and letter. Frank sends the completed art pages back to Marvel, where it is subject to still further "corrections suggested either by Roy or by assistant editor Ralph Macchio."

Ralph Macchio, as noted previously, had a letter printed in Marvel Feature #6 (before being hired by Marvel) where he complained about the level of detail in Thorne's art.  Now Macchio was the book's assistant editor, with the power to order the artist to make changes to the pages.

Also in this issue's lettercol, Dan Bailey suggested that it was unfortunate these comics were ineligible for Lin Carter's annual Year's Best Fantasy books because they were comics, not prose. Thomas agreed that the publishers of "real books" were short-sighted and gave a plug for The Superhero Women book. (More on prose Sonja later.)

RED SONJA #10 (July 1978) lacks a lettercol. The credits are the same as last issue except Jim Shooter is listed as consulting editor instead of Archie Goodwin.

Shooter became Marvel's editor-in-chief at the beginning of 1978. He would be listed as consulting editor instead of editor-in-chief until #14 (March 1979). Shooter sought to eliminate the writer-editor role at Marvel that had evolved from the position Stan Lee held in the 1960s when there were fewer books, thinking that the books needed more quality control and oversight. He also insisted that all freelancers sign Marvel's new work-for-hire contract which some found objectionable, resulting in them no longer working for Marvel (but more on that later).

RED SONJA #11 (Sept. 1978) was Frank Thorne's final issue. The credits were the same as before and once again there was no lettercol.

THE COMICS JOURNAL #42 (Oct. 1978) ran a short news item on Thorne's departure, claiming "he has expressed dissatisfaction with the scripts and will probably no longer be doing the strip." (The same issue, incidentally, ran a rave review by Dwight Decker of the first Elfquest comic by Wendy Pini, which had been published earlier that year. Archie Goodwin, when he was editor-in-chief, had rejected Elfquest when Pini first offered it to Marvel. Instead it would become one of the early successes of the creator-owned indie comics scene, along with Dave Sim's Cerebus which appeared around the same time.)

RED SONJA #12 (Nov. 1978) is the first post-Thorne issue, with John Buscema penciling, Joe Rubinstein inking, Joe Rosen lettering and G. Roussos coloring. In other words, four people doing the jobs that had previously been handled by one man: Frank Thorne.

In the issue's lettercol, Roy Thomas again diminishes Robert E. Howard's role in Red Sonja's creation. "After all," he writes, "though legalities and our own splash pages say that Red Sonja was created by Robert E. Howard, the fact remains that little more than the name (re-spelled) and a few character traits are left.... Roy would hardly be unsure about writing a character he at least co-conceived!"

The lettercol contained no mention of Frank Thorne having left. In a yellow box at the bottom, Roy notes that Variety recently mentioned a movie script titled "Alpha" by Clair Noto. Roy also mentions that he and Clair are writing a paperback novel for Dell Books, but I can find no evidence that it was published.

RED SONJA #13 (Jan. 1979) features the first mention of Thorne's departure, with Roy saying that Thorne is working instead on a Marvel Super Special starring Red Sonja (although I don't know if it ever was published).

A reader wrote in to praise Thorne for having improved his art, saying that it previously was "lousy," and suggests that someone else ink his pencils. This reflects the peculiar Marvelite attitude that would rather see a division of labor (so that it looks more familiar to the eye) than an individualistic style. Frank Thorne's total commitment to the comic was obviously unappreciated by this reader.

Thorne had been drawing the front covers; since his departure they were being drawn by Frank Brunner beginning with #12. Years later in a Comic Book Artist interview, Brunner said that Roy wanted him to draw the series. That interview showed how the cover of #14 had Brunner's depiction of Red Sonja's face altered so that it would more resemble Frank Thorne's version.

In any event, Brunner would not be long for the book either, refusing to sign the new work-for-hire contract. In Comics Scene #8 (March 1983) Brunner would write: "Under the medieval Marvel Comics dictum, the only thing acceptable is total capitulation and never mind appropriateness of justice. ... Marvel Comics has evolved into a fascist organization... So I say, in supporting Marvel Comics, you further inhibit the work of the creators who make comics what they are. As for myself, I wouldn't work there if they paid me to!"

RED SONJA #14 (March 1979) was drawn by Sal Buscema (pencils) and Al Milgrom (inks).  In the lettercol, a letter is printed by a reader who is happy to see that Frank Thorne is off the book. In his response, the editor notes, "And so the debate continues over the individualistic art style of Frank Thorne, even after he's departed the mag, at least for the time being!"

RED SONJA #15 (May 1979) was the final issue of the series (although it would shortly be revived, more on that later). The art this issue is by John Buscema and Tony DeZuniga.

In the lettercol, Roy again distinguishes Red Sonja from REH's Red Sonya. He also gives a final goodbye to Frank Thorne who, it sounds, will NOT be drawing that proposed Marvel Super Special after all since he "got involved with several other projects and his time is now fully booked."  (His time was now spent on his own Ghita strip for another publisher, but no need to inform Marvel readers about that.)

Below is the other half of the lettercol of the final issue, #15, where a reader gets in a last parting shot, writing: "As for Frank Thorne, admitting that his art is now definitive for the character, it is still criminal that he has been allowed to commit the abortions that have masqueraded as artwork this last year."

Red Sonja was not the only Marvel series to be cancelled this month -- so was another 1970s phenom, Howard the Duck, with #31 (two issues after his writer Steve Gerber left the book).

Why cancel two seemingly popular series? In Comics Scene #2 (March 1982) Jim Shooter wrote in to object to what was written in the previous issue's article about Marvel's 20th anniversary where there was a mention of Howard the Duck's popularity.

Shooter wrote: "Howard the Duck was NEVER 'immensely popular.' At best, it was marginal."

Was the same true of Red Sonja, just the appearance of popularity but in reality a marginal title deserving of cancellation?

Or could their cancellation have something also to do with their creators, an unwillingness to follow the orders of the new boss?

On Red Sonja alone, Marvel lost Frank Thorne, then cover artist Frank Brunner, soon writer-editor (with vocal co-creator claims) Roy Thomas and then even losing the character herself (more on this crazy unforseen consequence shortly).

As Roy Thomas notes in the yellow box at the bottom of the page, Ace Books (publisher of REH's Conan novels) would soon be publishing Red Sonja prose novels. So the character had come full circle, even as the comic which brought her to life was ended.

Shown below are two paperback books that I have: on the right, the fifth RED SONJA novel from Ace Books. This is a 3rd printing from 1983. The copyright is to Glenn Lord, who ran REH's literary estate. The cover is by Boris Vallejo based on the look of the Marvel version. No mention of Marvel in the book, though.  On the left is the cover of a paperback novel published in January 1978 by Pocket Books that depicts a similarly attired (or non-attired to be more accurate) swordswoman -- possibly another example of the character's popularity at that time.

Below is Wendy Pini's back cover for THE COMICS JOURNAL #50 (Oct. 1979). Even though Marvel had cancelled Red Sonja, the character made frequent appearances in fan and semi-pro art. Her most notable appearance was as Red Sophia in Dave Sim's Cerebus, where Thorne himself was also depicted (in his wizard convention guise).

From COMICS FEATURE #12/13 (1981), the final (albeit brief) loss, when Marvel itself lost the licensing rights to a character that would have had little value without Marvel"s development of the character.

The article notes that Shooter had John Bolton design a different outfit for Sonja anyway. Was this done because it was viewed as sexist or too racy? Or was the change made to try and take away identifiable contributions to the character"s appearance by creators who no longer worked for the company, in case an ownership claim was made?

Did Marvel or Glenn Lord complain about the similarity of Dave Sim's Red Sophia only to worry that their own ownership claim was insufficiently locked down due to lack of contracts with the creators involved in creating and popularizing her?

Marvel did soon regain the license for Red Sonja and her outfit was redesigned by Dave Simons so that she was more covered up. Even her hair style was changed so that the Red Sonja of the Frank Thorne era could be seen only outside the pages of Marvel Comics.